From Steno: Jennifer Marlowe Date: 02/26/89 Time: 22:35EST Attendees: [[Howard/SysOp] HORO] [[Bill J.] C128.CPM] [[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST] [[Dave] THX1138] [[Sam] S.LEWIT] [[Bear] C.BRYANT3] [[Ted,Sysop] DO-RAE-MI] [[Nick Boyce] MERIDIAN] [C.MURPHY] [[Walt] W.WEST] [B.LANDMAN] Minutes: <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> Thanks for coming ... I suspect you all know Lloyd already, so I'm gonna <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> turn the floor over to him for an intro, if he wants! <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> Hi, I'm Lloyd Sponenburgh, hardware designer of the Lt. Kernal... I'm part of a team... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> but my partner Roy Southwick is net-burned for now, so I'm alone tonight. ga <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> Thanks, Lloyd, short and sweet! <[Dave] THX1138> Ok I have three questions... <[Dave] THX1138> Is there any possiblity of the getting SW publishers to sell installable programs for the Lt. Kernal <[Dave] THX1138> You know the CP'd type programs <[Dave] THX1138> ga <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> I've seen several inquirys begun by software vendors... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> One was from a BIG gameware company.. several from smaller productivity software houses, and a cou ple from some Unnamed NET you don't want to hear about here!! ;) ga <[Dave] THX1138> ;]) ok thanks.... <[Dave] THX1138> What Kind of staff do you have support wise at xetec? <[Dave] THX1138> ga <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> Actually, I'm not with XETEC, but rather Fiscal Information, Inc... We build big hospital and medical systems for a living .... <[Dave] THX1138> Opps <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> Xetec has several full-time support people, and lots of behind the scene technical know how... sufficient that they can tu rn almost any repair around in 48 hours.. Usually they are even quicker, unless the load is heavy... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> They also have studied carefully with Roy and me, and are very knowlegeable in the internal workings of the Lt. Kernal DOS , so they really do know their stuff. <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> gaa <[Dave] THX1138> Ok, and one last question for the none owners Where does it plug in? <[Dave] THX1138> ga <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> It plugs into the EXPANSION port.. It occupies either i/o page, by your selection, and allows other cartridges to be activ e at the same time. <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> It does not interfere with the modem port's use... ga <[Bill J.] C128.CPM> How many different Hard drives do you mfg, and will they be upward compatible.. <[Bill J.] C128.CPM> to the Amiga or MSDOS machines sometime in the future?? <[Bill J.] C128.CPM> G/A <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> XETEC currently manufactures two standard models of the Lt. Kernal... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> 20 Meg, and 40 Meg.. and they also make the FASTRAK drives for the AMIGA... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> already, they are releasing interfaces to upgrade/temp use Lt. Kernals on Amigas... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> Theoretically, you could use one drive for both computers, but I don't know anyone who's actually doing that yet. <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> ga <[Bill J.] C128.CPM> OK, Thanks LLoyd. G/A <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Ok. I have two questions...... <[Sam] S.LEWIT> My first. About this Amiga interface you just talked about.... <[Sam] S.LEWIT> who do we contact about this? Would this be Xetec? Ga <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> XETEC in Salina KS... I KNEW I shoulda gotten their tel# handy!! ;) ga <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Ok, I have the number....second question... <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Technical manual... any ideas on when we might expect to see one? ga <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> I keep hoping... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> Roy has been knee-deep in solving some sticky problems with the increasing size of our larger systems, so he's been off do ing other things for a while... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> As of about three weeks ago, he had 3/4 of the docs done, subject to simple rewriting into lay english!! ga <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Thanks! Thats all I wanted to know. Next? <[Bill J.] C128.CPM> The subject of CP/M support comes to mind ... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> <[Bill J.] C128.CPM> Any chances for the 28MAY87 system support, yet?? <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> I'm working on THAT in my personal spare time... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> it's NOT considered a top-priority company project, because the 1581 just isn't getting a very cheerful reception from the rest of the CBM software world, either. <[Bill J.] C128.CPM> So the Lt Kernal is also compatible with the QBB cart in CP/M mode, too? <[Bill J.] C128.CPM> g/a <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> We still are talking, on and off, with the Berkley folks, but no detente, much less agreement has been reached yet. <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> My mind just slipped... QBB? <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> Quick Brown Box ... battery backed RAM cartridge. <[Bill J.] C128.CPM> Quick Brown Box battery backed ram. <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> Oh, yeah... Well, I haven't tried it myself... don't NEED such hoopla with a Lt. Kernal, but I understand it does. <[Bill J.] C128.CPM> Uses Q-Disk as a driver in CP/M mode. <[Bill J.] C128.CPM> Great! Thank you. <[Bill J.] C128.CPM> g/a <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> C'mon... The Lt. Kernal is 102% the speed of RAM DISK.. so why burden your budget? <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> Just to clarify Lloyd, the LT. Kernal is NOT compatible with GEOS right now, <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> right? <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> The Lt. Kernal is not GEOS compatible NOW... but we're working on it... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> I talked with a programmer last month who's attempting a 'sample' port of it now. <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> ga <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Ok.... As far as a new DOS update.... <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Any plans for that soon? And if so, what kind of things would YOU Lloyd love to see in it? Ga <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> The next MAJOR version of the DOS is going to contain something I dearly love.. <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> ALL the patches re-assembled into linear code!! After that, we have some projects we will attempt to include, like double -sidedd 1571 FASTCOPY, and some gimmicks we like to play with for text-editing and file-handling... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> GA <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Ok. Can I ask one more? <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Ok, is it JUST ME, or can I NOT dissolve an .sda file on my LtK, or even my 1541 with the LtK active? ga <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> I have no problem .... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> It's just you... I dissolve SDA's almost daily on mine. ga <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Hmm I've tried several timess.... <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> Any other hardware mods, Sam? <[Sam] S.LEWIT> All the DOS patches.. I know others too... <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Nodda. Just the LtK and a 1541 <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> Hmm ... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> You better check down on LU 0 user 0 and see if they haven't actually been going THERE!! ga <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Strange. Screen turns colors, and locks up. Have to LKOFF to do it. ALWAYS! Hi Lloyd, I was curious about The Power Developer's kit... also I was curious about the tape streaming back-up hardware?? <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> That IS coming, but I've got to rely on the DOS Wizard, Roy for the docs... The tape thing is a different story.... let me expound... and lastly about the 3 port UART if you have some time...very interesting stuff. gaa <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> We have exhausted ten different approaches to the tape-streamer in an attempt <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> to come up with something cost-effective enough to market in the CBM marketplace... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> It just isn't going to happen with the CURRENT run of products available... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> however, I constantly look for new ways.... One might be VIDEO backup, and I'm working on that now... The multi-port rs23 2 device is now in the hands... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> of three different developers, all of whom report products underway. ga <[Dave] THX1138> <[Dave] THX1138> Ok, I heard someone mention GEOS... <[Dave] THX1138> How far away are we from having compatability <[Dave] THX1138> ga <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> Unless someone ports an unauthorized copy to the Lt. Kernal, it may be a while... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> We have had no positive negotiations... not even receptiveness from Berkley yet... but we DO keep hoping. ga <[Dave] THX1138> Ok, thanks again! GA <[Sam] S.LEWIT> My question is this.... <[Sam] S.LEWIT> I've mentioned this on your board Lloyd.... <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Is there ANY possibility that we may someday be able to transfer.... <[Sam] S.LEWIT> "easily" on a multiplexed system ? Ga <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> HA!! GOTCHA!! One very avid user, Bill Brier has already done just that... <[Sam] S.LEWIT> On the 64? <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> He has 7 stations communicating mail, databases, and docs back and forth... on a mix of 128's and 64s... He even has ONE 6 4 just acting <[Sam] S.LEWIT> <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> as a separate printer-spooler for the rest of the system. <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> ga <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Ok, how do we get our hands on this? <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Ga <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> You read Bill's excellent articles in TRANSACTOR.. ga <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Ok. Thank you Ok Lloyd , Sam isn't the only one with SDA fault. Ga <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> Then I'd like to help... send me EXACT copies of what won't dissolve.. <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> on a diskette, and I'll try to reproduce the problem at my end. <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> Lloyd, any possibility that I/O page is the problem? <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> ga <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> The page COULD affect it... change it and see. ga <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Um Burt was saying to me privately... <[Sam] S.LEWIT> that NONE of the SDA's YOU have released will dissolve on the LTK. I have more... <[Sam] S.LEWIT> So YOu have them right on your board... My 2nd question... <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> (I've dissolved them all, no problem) <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Those jumpers that we're told to install. We probably all know.. . <[Sam] S.LEWIT> that everything runs fine without them. How important are they? Ga <[Sam] S.LEWIT> ? <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> Are you using 64 mode?? They are all 64 SDA's THE JUMPERS ARE ESSENTIAL!! <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> Could THAT be why the SDA's don't dissolve? <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Possibly!... <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> (holding his head in his hands) <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Can you elaborate on the jumpers a bit? <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> If you don't use the jumpers many LT Kernal functions cannot work. I would say that IS your problem.. The i/o pages, and rom/ram maps get all confused without them... that's <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> why we tell folks ONLY to use BASIC without installing the jumpers... ML does funny things with memorymapping sometimes, a nd the jumpers control signals essential to those processes. ga <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> (whipping Sam with a wet noodle) <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Thanks. I run 3 ports UNJUMPED, and never really noticed any probs before. <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Go ahead. I'm finished! <[Sam] S.LEWIT> In more ways than one Last biggie...have you ever thought of adding RAM caching to the muxxer using an out board proccesor? Ga. <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> I'm gonna GET ya there!! Did you know we're ALREADY doing caching in the Lt. Kernal host-adaptor?? Grinning ear to ear! <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> ga I suspected as much!! Ga. <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> By the way folks, Xetec's phone # is 913-827-0685 <[Nick Boyce] MERIDIAN> Lloyd, thanx for some excellent answers to some tuff questions. Now fer a *REAL* toughie... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> urk! <[Nick Boyce] MERIDIAN> What are the chances of Xetec "un-bundling" the DOS/Controller combo from the ST-225/251 to allow us hardware freaks to use other drive combo's ?? <[Nick Boyce] MERIDIAN> After all -- doesn;t take Dick tracy t'figure out the pricing on the ST-225... <[Nick Boyce] MERIDIAN> in bulk...ga <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> Heh, heh!! Our dealings with XETEC have revealed that THEY like to help folks as much as we.... but don't oversimplify that pricing scenario.. It's like this... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> (I thrashed this out on my BBS, too)... By the time you build a system using the same quality of components as does XETEC, you'll have spent almost 85% <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> as much as the discounters charge, and not have NEARLY as classy-looking or QUIET unit as XETEC puts together.... But! <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> We have been talking with them about an 'experimenter' kit, and that could be a possibility in the future... I don't really know for sure, but you can find out directly from them by contacting... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> John Shoultys, manaager of customer service, at Xetec.. He's real friendly, and will give you a straight answer, first time. <[Nick Boyce] MERIDIAN> Thanx, Lloyd. Sorry to make you wear the PR hat tonite... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> That's part of the job, Nick...ga <[Bear] C.BRYANT3> An expanded version of Nicks Q <[Bear] C.BRYANT3> Is there an SCSI adapter anywhere in the future for the 64/128? <[Bear] C.BRYANT3> ga <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> HUH??? The Lt. Kernal host-adaptor IS an SCSI port!! What exactly do you mean? ga <[Bear] C.BRYANT3> Sorry LS, I'm not an LTK user. I'll withdrawl the question. <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> No, no.. That's legit... let me address it. <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> The Lt. Kernal host-adaptor contains an SCSI port, expansion RAM, memory-mapping control, and a few 'tricks' to make the whole shebang work on a 128.. ga <[Bear] C.BRYANT3>Thank for the understanding <[Dave] THX1138> Is it possible to add on another drive using the same controller? <[Dave] THX1138> ga <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> If by controller, you mean the Lt. Kernal host-adaptor... YES!! you can have up to <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> seven drives connected to one host-adaptor... The Lt. Kernal doesn't usually contain a 'controller', as such, since most models contain <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> drives with 'embedded' controllers. ga <[Dave] THX1138> And the DOS supports this, multipule drives? GA <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> Oh, yes... We even allow you to mix capacities on the same system.. ga <[Dave] THX1138> GREAT thanks a:gain GA <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> Sam? <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Lloyd: I think Dave MIGHT have meant SEPERATE LtK drives? <[Sam] S.LEWIT> (dev 8, dev 9?) <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Anyway... I have a trivial question... <[Dave] THX1138> No jst drives <[Sam] S.LEWIT> I noticed on the DOS LU, a file called NEW. What does that do? What is the difference between typing "new" and " new"? <[Sam] S.LEWIT> <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> NO user's question is trivial... but some, I DO hear a lot... That one, not so often... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> The NEW processor is used to intercept the CBM's NEW command so that the Lt. Kernal will know that the 'current filename' you established when editing or <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> loading a BASIC program is no longer valid .. That's for the S processor's <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> benefit... ga <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Ah! So its advanatgeous to let the LTK process the NEW then huh? <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> Oh, yes, and we process several ROM intercepts, too. ga <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Ok, this one will be a little tricky. Oh never mind. No biggie. <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Done <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> You sure? <[Sam] S.LEWIT> I guess. .No! <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Let me TRY... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> I'mn getting over my stage-fright!! <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> Go ahead, Ask it! <[Sam] S.LEWIT> If I'm running any ole basic program for example... <[Sam] S.LEWIT> And I STOP the program, then CONT it... <[Sam] S.LEWIT> When/if the program asks for input such as top or one, that "S" and "D" are intercepted by the LtK and acted upon! Are you aware of this abnormality? <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Not that its a major problem, but... Ga <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> That abnormality ONLY APPEARS if the S or D appear in the leftmost column of the screen.. That's the only place we accept direct-mode commands... however... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> what you are seeing is an artifact of the fact that the Lt. Kernal no longer 'knows' that the machine in RUN mode... We anticipate a CONT processor in the next major rev to satisfy that. ga <[Sam] S.LEWIT> Great. Thanks Done How about low level formating as well as contiguious block reallotment utility 'ala' 'NORTON like on the IBM?? <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> We have written such a utility for our "old" FISCAL systems, but most of the <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> xetec systems contain drives which the manufacturers suggest THEY format for you.... We have talked about putting together such a utility for the embedded- <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> controller drives.. Xetec is really the outfit to make that choice, though... They control the market for the drive, and the maintenance, and they may not choose <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> to release such a 'pandoras box' as a full-fledged formatter... Those suckers cause an awful lot of service problems in the PC world, due to careless use..ga <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> Well, that's the end of the questions, it looks like ... <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> Before I open up the room, a quick commercial ... <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> On March 5, we will be hosting a 1541 drive clinic, with DIGITAL.DOC <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> conducting a q/a session! <[Howard/SysOp] HORO> I'd like to thank Lloyd for coming tonight, it's been fun! <[LSponenburgh] DEBS-GUEST> I enjoyed it... as you probably noted, I get running on the keyboard!! === End of Steno notes. ===